Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Dealmaker Uncut podcast where we speak to some of the UK's most exciting entrepreneurs and hear their investment journeys. We'll discuss the challenges, successes and lessons they've learned along the way with expert deals commentary from Jonathan Boyers, head of Alvarez and Marcel Corporate Finance, and me, Chris McGuire, executive editor at Business Cloud.
Well, welcome everyone to the latest episode of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast, powered by Avarice and Marcel. My name as always is Chris McGuire, I'm the executive editor of Business Cloud and I'm joined by the multiple award winning dealmaker himself, Jonathan Boyers. Jonathan's been involved in deals totaling 5 billion pounds plus during his long and illustrious career and he's a Managing director and head of Alvarez and Marcel's corporate finance practice in the uk. Welcome, Jonathan.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris. Great to be here.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Now this is a trip down memory lane because we've got two wigginners on today's panel and I'm not talking about me. This is the podcast that gets Inside the Deal in the first part show. Today we're going to be interviewing our very special guest. Then we're going to be taking a short break and you'll be leaning on your 35 years plus of experience to answer listener questions as well. So, Jonathan, you know our special guest very well. You certainly know what part of the world she hails from. Who are we speaking to today?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris. Well, today we're going to be interviewing Tiffany thorne, who's the CEO of Bivictrex Therapeutics, which at 33 tiff she became one of the UK's youngest CEOs of a public listed company when the company entered the AIM market.
And as you said, she's a proud wigginner, just like me. So welcome, Tiffany.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: Thank you, Jonathan. Pleasure to be here, Tiffany.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: I'll ask a couple of questions just to set the scene. Really, there aren't enough female deal makers and I think we're going to get your insights on that as well. Before then, I'm going to take you back and this really will be nostalgia for Jonathan, you're proud to be from Wigan. You went to Chevington High School and is it pronounced Winstanley College? Yes, Winstanley College. Before studying at Lancaster University, where you got first class honours in biochemistry and biomedicine. One of the things that fascinated me the first time I met you was that your grandmother was a hairdresser and there was this expectation that you'd follow in her hairdressing footsteps. Is that right?
[00:02:22] Speaker C: That's exactly right. So my brother was the intelligent one in the family. So our family had high expectations for him. But being a young girl with blonde hair, her, the expectation was that I'd just take what they would class as a normal stereotypical job in Wigan, which was a hairdresser and I'm terrible at doing her.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Okay, and you didn't, you, you know, you didn't go down that route. Why didn't you go down that route? Were you always strong willed?
[00:02:48] Speaker C: Strong willed, very stubborn, Always wanted to prove everybody wrong. Loved science.
I had an excellent teacher in primary school that just really pulled out my scientific ability. Unfortunately she, she died of blood cancer actually whilst I was at PR school and just wanted to go on and make a difference, particularly in healthcare.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: And that was a real. The teacher in question had a real impact on your life.
As you mentioned before, she died tragically young of acute myeloid leukemia. AML. You joined the NHS, became a clinical immunologist. At the age of 27, you launched Bivitrix Therapeutics. What problem were you trying to fix?
[00:03:26] Speaker C: So something that probably resonates with a lot of people which is the systemic side effects that we still see with, with chemotherapy, even what we call precision therapies.
So we are taking an established drug class that is already proven to be deliver good results in the clinic, but has limitations around toxicity side effects. And we've designed a next generation medicine that can actually even broaden the results that we're seeing with this drug class, but make them much more safer, much more tolerable for patients to take for a longer period of time. So there's a notion globally at the moment where we're trying to turn cancer into a chronic disease that can be managed just like many other chronic conditions and doesn't have to be a death sentence.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: So in very simple terms for somebody, a layman like myself, when people undergo chemotherapy and we all know people who have it can knock them for six, they talk about that is what you're doing to alleviate that after effect of being on chemo.
[00:04:26] Speaker C: Exactly. So we have found a way and it actually stemmed from my work in the nhs working on clinical diagnostics. So we found a way to direct these treatments precisely to the actual cancer cells so that they avoid any effects on healthy cells. So the biggest problem with cancer therapeutic development is being able to differentiate the cancer cells from healthy human cells. But we think we've found a way to do that.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: It's really interesting.
So I mean from a deals point of view, I think we're following this journey right from startup so we haven't had many of those.
Those conversations with people who have actually started up a business and worked through early stage funding.
And as we've already said, you ended up joining the AIM market and that was a journey that we'll talk about. But would you mind just talking about the initial. When you were setting the business up, there must have been a whole range of fundraising difficulties, issues. I'd be really interested to hear how you negotiated your way through the sort of seed funding and early stage funding.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: So I was quite fortunate at the time. I was an employee of a company and I had a very supportive board of directors that helped me kind of draft the business plan and actually gave me permission to go out and set up the company. We actually found the startup and the initial seed capital actually quite a straightforward process.
People bought into the idea and it was a concept at the time. We had no data, but I think people. The idea kind of. It was so simple. I think there's this notion that some of the best ideas are the ones that are, you know, beautifully simple, if you like, so people can understand them. And I think because it actually originated from techniques used in the NHS today, it made it a little bit more validated, a bit more believable. So we actually found the initial seed raise from regional investors quite straightforward.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: We actually had 2.3 million.
[00:06:26] Speaker C: That was 2.3 million. It was kind of tranched over the years, so the initial investment was half a million. And then we met our milestones, we were able to draw down more capital from the same investors, but we actually had to turn investors away at that initial stage. This was back in 2017.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Right, okay.
And then you moved on to having to raise growth capital as the business progressed. Yes, I'm taking it from that. That. That wasn't quite as straightforward.
[00:06:54] Speaker C: That's a lot more challenging. Certainly is in the uk, the valley of death, as we call it in biotech. And it's getting worse, unfortunately, the current climate. But that is the more challenging capital to.
And that's what eventually led us to taking the alternative route to I.P.O. the company.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Okay, but you did raise the.
Did you raise any more money or did you go straight from the initial seed funding to ipo?
[00:07:23] Speaker C: We went straight from seed to ipo, yeah. So I think, you know, particularly in biotech, it's an environment where you need to take in significant amount of capital before you go into sea any revenues be generated and so it's finding sources of capital. So our initial investors, really supportive, but they had limited pockets and so they remained supportive of the company, but they couldn't fund us on the next growth venture. So we had to be opportunistic. We were to look for that. We were intending to remain as a private company, but we were approached with a deal and when we looked at the dynamics of that deal, it made sense to go down that route.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: So how did you find that process then, becoming a public company? I mean, you won't be the typical CEO that people will have come across with your background from Wigan and a fairly young female.
How did you find all that? How did it feel?
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Well, it was interesting really, because as I say, we were trying to raise money privately and that is a very slow process in the UK, unfortunately, it can take six to 12 months to complete, diligence and negotiate on deal terms. So we're in the middle of that process and as I say, we were approached by an advisor down in London with this opportunity, which at the time I thought was madness. But then when we actually started to look into it and we, we kind of probed the market and we saw that there was a lot of interest at the time in early stage biotech companies.
I actually found the process, I was thinking it would be a lot, a lot worse than it actually was as an experience. I found it even doing an ipo and we did it in record time, I think six to eight weeks. We had to complete the process.
It was just far more streamlined and efficient than raising money privately. So I was quite surprised and surprised with the investor uptake as well. Given, as you say, I'm not sort of the stereotypical CEO of an AIM listed company.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So you raised about, was it seven and a half million pounds on the.
[00:09:34] Speaker C: We actually, yes, we went out and we were actually heavily oversubscribed, so we were looking to raise less than 5 million and we actually had the appetite for 15 million and we decided to take 7 and a half at the time.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: And you rang the bell at the stock exchange and then started life as a CEO of a quoted company.
Just talk about how you found that.
We had Steve Oliver, who's the CEO of Music Magpie, on the podcast a few weeks ago and he was talking about a lot of extra scrutiny that he found. What was your experience on aim?
[00:10:14] Speaker C: It's quite interesting actually. There's definitely pros and cons, but the pros which really surprised me, you know, you have your own board as a private company, you have a board of investor directors and therefore it's quite, you know, the company can't set the direction Fully.
Also, the fundraising, as I say, was much more streamlined. There's not a 12 month negotiation over terms. The terms are fixed, people make quick decisions. It really helps these early stage companies or biotech companies really get on and do what's important and go and meet the milestones.
I did find, obviously the reporting obligations, there's a cost to that, both in terms of an advisory fee cost or a financial cost, but also the time and sometimes distractions from the reporting obligations.
But otherwise it really focuses your mind on what news flow is going to be meaningful to the investors.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: A couple of things I was going to mention, which very personal to you. Your father tragically died of acute myeloid leukemia in 2019, aged 68. So it became really, really sort of personal then.
One thing that you didn't do when you listed on AIM was to look at the share price every morning. You were really disciplined about that. So what was your thinking then and why did you do it?
[00:11:38] Speaker C: So I always think if you're going to get yourself into this environment, which is obviously very pressurising, it can be exhausting mentally. You've got to know yourself well. And I knew that if I looked at the share price every day, you can get carried away when it's going in the right direction. You can get downhearted and it's going in the wrong direction. So I think just keeping your feet on the ground, remembering exactly what is important. And obviously I have both a professional and a personal reason to be working in this area.
So I think, you know, a milestone driven business like the one I'm in, it's knowing what is a meaningful milestone, what is going to move the needle on the value of the company and just keeping really focused on that and just cut out the noise, really.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: We, myself and Jonathan are two middle aged white guys hosting a podcast about deals. I'm acutely aware, as is Jonathan, in terms of the difficulties that a lot of female founders have in raising investment.
And as Jonathan mentioned, there aren't many females running listed companies, let alone many females, 33 at the time, from Wigan. In fact, I think you'll probably get a blue plaque at some point in the future as well. When you opened your mouth and people heard this strong northern accent and you were a female CEO and you were talking to investors, what reaction did you get? Good and bad.
[00:13:08] Speaker C: So I mean this, this is a really interesting point because one of the things that I did enjoy about being a publicly listed business is the investors that invest in those businesses. So high net worth individuals in particular, they tend to be successful business people in their own right.
I don't think it had any impact. I think they look, they judge the person on the conviction, on the resilience. And I actually think coming from a working class background and sort of pushing your way forward and not being hand everything on a plate, I actually really resonated with them. So I found that I had really good traction with those individuals. I think where it's more of a challenge is institutional investors. They have the blueprint and if you don't fit the mold, if you didn't go to the right academic institutions, you're not in the inner circle. I think that's where it becomes much more challenging. And actually the BIA this year had a report on women in biotech and I think there's 18% female CEOs of biotech companies in the UK, UK at the moment. But we were only responsible for raising 8% of the capital that was raised into the UK in the sector last year.
So there is a, you know, a problem across the UK around females not raising as much as their male counterparts with institutional investors.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Jonathan, what's your take on that?
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was thinking we TIF and I have a very similar background. We went to the same school.
I went to Winstonley College as well.
So I find that encouraging. What you just said about the majority of investors, I think the city I'm working in investment banking and it's only in the last few years really, that I've got over my own imposter syndrome about coming from a more modest background than a lot of my colleagues in the industry.
And I do think that there's a need for. I think there's a lot of very talented people who are not able to build careers in either corporate finance or investment or in this world because it's hard for them to break through. And I think social diversity is something that we should. Certainly we as a team are taking much more seriously about how we think we bring people into the business. So I can empathize with a lot of that.
So the next step of the journey was that you decided to delist the business, take it private. Could you just talk about that? Because the fact that you made that decision suggests it wasn't all perfect leading as a listed company or as a quoted company.
So would you be able to talk to us a bit about that decision and how you did that?
[00:16:00] Speaker C: So the main reason behind that decision is just the uncertainty. It's quite a volatile and uncertain market for biotech at the moment, globally, obviously with all the geopolitical uncertainty and it particularly hit AIM quite hard. So we knew we're now at the stage where we've developed assets, we've got drugs that are showing to do exactly what we want them to do in the lab, but we need to take them into human trials to demonstrate that this has WORF in a as a human medicine and that is a very costly exercise. And the investors in the current environment on AIM we knew wouldn't allow us to raise that more significant amount of Series A capital.
So it was with regret that we decided to delist and it was completely a situational factor. And one of our lead investors was actually very strongly in favour of becoming a re registering as a private company. So it was really in collaboration with our investors that they voted that they would like us to go private. It was 98% vote in favour. So it was with their support.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: And that was just. That was a delisting.
Was it done at the same time as a new fundraise or.
[00:17:13] Speaker C: No? Well, it was done prior to an internal round.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Okay. And then that's been completed. So that's.
[00:17:22] Speaker C: That was completed, yes.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: But that was done as a private fundraising round.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: Yes, yes, that's correct.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: You mentioned, you hinted how difficult the investment market is at the moment, which will relate to a lot of our listeners and viewers, you've done hundreds of pitches, I dare say. I mean, what's the market like? Just explain it for them that don't know.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: So we're in quite an interesting time at the moment. I mean, as I say, it's a risky sector back in a biotech company and I think investors have become more risk averse because of the uncertainty around.
So what we're seeing is there's still a lot of capital out there and there's still a lot of capital being deployed, but investors are kind of grouping up into one company. So we're seeing these mega over subscribed deals in individual companies. So a lot of capital going out there, but the number of deals being made across the number of companies is reduced.
So it is a really challenging environment. I think a lot of the analysts in the sector are saying it's one of the worst times for biotech just because it's been going on for so, so long.
And then we've got other threats now coming in from, you know, Asia in terms of the drug development capabilities. They've, they've really, you know, risen substantially. And so there's a big threat from Asia at the moment. So the competition is more fierce as.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Well, it's not an even playing field, is it? So if you look at Asia, just describe like the Asian biotech sector. I mean, they're working 24 7, aren't they?
[00:18:53] Speaker C: They are. The work ethic is crazy. Obviously the salaries are reduced so they can get so much more done compared to what a Western company could achieve. And pharma are buying into it at the moment as well. They're not really innovating as much. There's a lot of R and D happening, but in our sector in particular, they're making good medicines and as I say, pharma are buying in at a reduced rate.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: A lot of the larger pharma companies are US based, so presumably there'll be a point where you will start engaging more with US investors, maybe even US buyers for the business in due course.
What's happening in the US at the moment?
How do you view that?
[00:19:40] Speaker C: We're actually there because of the type of business and the capital that we need. We've been starting to engage with US investors and Farmer over the last, last sort of 12 months. So I'm on a board of three and the two other directors are US based. My CBO is US based, so we're almost a UK registered company, but we're starting to look like a US company.
But US investors, even though the, you know, the fundraising environment over there is, is still, you know, not, not as great as it has been, but they are less risk averse and actually it's a bit outdated now. But there was a, a report done many years ago that found that the investment managers in US VCs, 60% of them have generally worked in a business before, have been an entrepreneur before the UK in tech and biotech, that's 4%.
So you just feel like you're talking to, you know, like minded people. They understand how to run a business, they make quicker decisions, you know, they'll give you brutal feedback but it allows you to use that feedback and move on. We need to become more like that, I think, in the UK in order to retain these growing companies.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: I think what's interesting about yourself as well is that you've got a real passion for wanting to change the world. You know, you've seen the impact on the teacher at school. You had a big, you know, influenced your life and obviously your father dying in 2019 as well. So you've got this absolute passion to change the world, but you're a pragmatist at the end of the day. You're from Wigan, you know, you've Got a limited Runway as well.
So you want to. How do you balance the two of those?
[00:21:17] Speaker C: I think it's a combination of being, you know, showing a lot of conviction, but being adaptable as well. So the competitive landscape and the market changes all the time. And that's why I said you need to be opportunistic. You need to keep on top of what's happening, what a farmer looking for who's our biggest competitor.
But you've got to show resilience as well.
So I think it's a combination of really knowing what is going to move the needle, focusing all of your attention and resources on that. Cut out anything else. That's, as I say, the noise in the background, that's not actually going to add any value to the company and just remain grounded. And as you say, Chris, I think coming from a modest background, it helps with that, I think as well. Just, you know, as I say, it is mentally exhausting running a business where, you know, you have to fundraise almost every year.
But it's about knowing yourself as well and keeping yourself sane. And I think if you know yourself, you know what you mentally need. It keeps you in the game and it keeps you resilient and focused.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: One other thing we touched on earlier in the interview was the difficulty that female founders often find it to raise money.
A lot of people say to me, a lot of female founders say, you know, it's not just the difficulty in raising money, but one of the reasons why it's difficult is there are so few females on the other side of the table.
Has that been your experience?
[00:22:38] Speaker C: Yes, definitely. And I think again, there's multiple reports out.
There's, you know, particularly in the uk, I imagine it's similar in other territories as well, but there's a real lack of female decision makers at the top table in investment funds. But also it's that kind of inner circle. Again, I feel like it's a similar group of people that move between funds and they are the decision makers and events. If you're in that circle, then you probably have an easier ride than if you're a little bit different. You come from a different place. You don't fit the blueprint.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Jonathan, you've worked in corporate finance for 35 years. Have you seen it change at all?
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the corporate finance community has evolved dramatically over the years. I mean, the way that deals are done now, there's a lot more process.
I would say the landscape is fairer for businesses. I think there's a wider range of investors the investment community is maturing.
Certainly in the private equity community there's a lot more players.
We're getting to the point where there's loads of competition. So when you do go to market, there is a lot of choice.
Obviously these days, with the market being a bit difficult, there's a scale in making sure that you've attracted the right people's attention. I think in the earlier stage market it's still a bit less mature and there's lots of different players. Some people are really just enhanced individuals who are set up as a private office.
So you've got a whole range of the early stage funders. But once you get into the mid market of private equity, it's quite a lot of choice now. And I think whilst the point I made earlier, social diversity is still an issue and gender diversity, diversity is definitely an issue.
When I was talking about this recently, my understanding, having spoken to some recruiters, is that less than 1%, I think it's closer to half a percent of partners and managing directors in investment banks in the UK are women. And so when we go to try and improve our gender diversity, the only real way to do it is to grow talent.
So. Yeah, but I do think that it's less clubby than it was 20 years ago.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: No, it's good to hear, but there's still so much more work to do. Massive thanks to you, Tiffany. We're going to break for a short interval. When we come back, myself and Jonathan will be reflecting on the interview we've just done and also Jonathan will be answering your questions.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Thanks, Tiffany. It was really great to hear that story.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Thanks very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Welcome back to the second half of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast. We've just interviewed Tiffany Thorne, CEO of Bivitrix Therapeutics. What do you think, Jonathan?
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Well, again, a fascinating story and this time focusing on early stage fundraising. And that's a world that we've not explored properly until this session. I thought she was great.
I was delighted to see how actually relatively easy it was for her to get the seed funding up and running. But hasn't she done a great job developing that business? And it's obviously purpose driven leadership.
I think she's remarkable in the way that she keeps being able to raise the funding and develop that product.
Obviously it's still got a long life ahead of it and I look forward to seeing how it develops. But no, very impressive. And as we explored from relatively modest background, I think she's already achieved a lot and she's still very young. Yeah.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: And I think when it comes to investment, it's a question of following the money. So the reason they went on the AIM market initially was because that's where the opportunity was to raise cash. And then the reason they delisted was because it was holding them back in terms of the ability to raise money. So they're now raising again, but it's a constant battle. But one of the things I like about Tiffany is she's just so authentic. And that comes out. So this next part of the podcast is entitled Ask Jonathan. It's when listeners and viewers can ask Jonathan any questions they want.
First question, Jonathan. Is there a lot of dry powder out there trying to find a home to invest into? So a lot of people use the term dry powder, especially in terms of private equity investment. Is there a lot of it out there and are they trying to find a home?
[00:27:18] Speaker B: So what this is referring to is the fact that there's been a lot of private equity money raised by a lot of different fund managers.
And while the M and A market's not been quite as strong as it has in the past for two or three years, there's accumulated quite a lot of capital that needs to be invested.
And they call that dry powder.
And that is right.
And what this means is if you have got a high quality business that's looking to either seek funding or particularly go through a private equity LED transaction, there is a lot of money out there and you can get some really well attended auctions for the right businesses. So, yeah, I mean, I think some of the PE funds are seeing the returns that they've achieved from investments made four or five years ago when the market was quite heady, some of the returns are a bit lower. And so fundraising just at the moment hasn't been quite as easy. So one or two of the funds that have needed to raise money have found it more challenging than in the past. But that is partly a function of the fact that there is so much money around.
So, yes, there's a lot of choice at the moment, as we talked about earlier in the podcast.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Okay, question two. I'm in the process of raising investment. It's been suggested that I should roll over a percentage of my money back into the business.
What's your advice? Probably just worth explaining. Even though the clue's in the name, what's the rollover?
[00:28:52] Speaker B: So I think what this is talking about is when somebody owns a business and they decide to sell it to realize their investment, if they decide to sell the business to private equity, but they are involved in running the business, then the private equity investors will typically want to know that the founder, if they are still actively or key to running the business, will still be invested in the business. So it's often possible to take a large amount of money off the table as a founder, but normally there's a need to reinvest about 50% of that amount back in the business.
Often there's a management team that's standing up and getting more involved in leading the business.
If there's a founder rolling over, they're often and doing that thinking that it's the start of a succession plan and so new management coming through will be incentivized. They'll often receive suite equity, which is basically equity that is awarded at a much more modest price.
But yes, it's a sign of commitment that founders are asked to roll over alongside new investors.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: They'd like to see they've got skin in the game.
Third question and final question. I was approached by a potential buyer for my business last year. That was 14 months ago and we still haven't closed the deal. How long should the process last and when should I be willing to walk away?
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Well, this is a story that I have heard a few times recently.
The market that we're in has been a little bit nervous.
And so when buyers of businesses are doing their due diligence, they're very thorough at the moment and the slightest sign of problems can mean that a small issue can become quite a big issue in the minds of the investor. And so deals can take longer, smaller issues become magnified.
I suppose the way to deal with that is usually to have a competitive process. So if you can run a process and attract a competitive environment so you've got several bidders bidding against each other at the same time, that will normally drive not only a value to be a bit higher, but it will also drive timing. People often don't realise when you talk about having competitive tension in a process, it's not just about value, it's also about making sure that people move with pace.
Because if you're competing with somebody to get an offer in and to meet certain deadlines, then you're more likely to do it. If you end up with a bilateral negotiation with somebody, you've not run a process, it's just a one to one negotiation. Very often if it's a private equity funder, they'll wonder why there's nobody else around the process and they'll start to get nervous that there's something they're missing. And so they'll look for another month's trading or, or do a little bit more due diligence to check that they're not missing anything.
There is a point businesses don't benefit from being in process, so normally you'd want to be in process for as short a period as possible. And sometimes you just need to decide to refocus on the business and get back to growing the business.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: I interviewed a female founder last week and she was saying this happened to her and that she was so focused on getting the deal over the line that the revenue of her business dropped. And then they tried to chip her down on the price.
Now she was so far down the process that she'd, in her own mind, sold the business and then it got to the finishing line and then they chipped her down even more. And she said if she'd done it all over again, she would have walked away a lot earlier. And it's fascinating that, you know, you're hearing stories like that as well.
That's all for this episode of the Dealmaker Uncut Podcast. Powered by Alvarez and Marcel, the Dealmaker Uncut Podcast continues to ride high in the UK Podcast charts and beyond. So keep on listening. Please tell your friends and family. Final shout out to the star of the show, the Dealmaker himself, Jonathan Boyers.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, tell your friends and family and follow us on social media. Thank you very much.
[00:33:25] Speaker C: Sam.
