Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Dealmaker Uncut podcast where we speak to some of the UK's most exciting entrepreneurs and hear their investment journeys. We'll discuss the challenges, successes and lessons they've learned along the way with expert deals commentary from Jonathan Boyers, head of Alvarez and Marcel Corporate Finance, and me, Chris McGuire, executive editor at Business Cloud.
Welcome everyone to the latest episode of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast, powered by Alvarez and Marcel. My name is Chris McGuire and I'm the executive editor of Business Cloud. Now we're in a different studio today, but some things don't change and I'm joined by one of them, the multi award winning deal maker himself, Jonathan Boyers. Jonathan's been involved in deals totaling 5 billion pound during his long and illustrious career and he's a managing director and head of Alvarez and Marcel's corporate finance practice in the uk. Welcome, Jonathan.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris. Great to be here. Really looking forward to this session.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Okay, this is the podcast that gets you, the listener and the viewer. Inside the Deal. In the first part of today's show, we're going to be interviewing our special guest. After that we'll then have a short break and in the second part, Jonathan will be answering your questions, leaning on his 35 years of experience working in the corporate finance sector.
Jonathan, you know our special guest very, very well. Who are we talking to today?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Well, Chris, today it's an old friend of mine. We're going to be talking to Matthew Hurst. So, Matt, the CE global energy software giant esg and an excellent entrepreneurial CEO of a business as well. I first knew him when he was the CEO of a business called Utility Group. And we'll tell the story of how Utiligroup turned into esg.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: I thought you were going to say, I first knew Matthew when he was a boy.
You really would be going a long way back. So yes, huge welcome. Welcome to Matthew.
[00:01:54] Speaker C: Thanks very much guys.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Matthew or Matt?
[00:01:56] Speaker C: Matt.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Matt.
Matthew is like your Sunday name.
Matt. I think I'll kick off, if I may. I think it'd be quite helpful to set the scene. Just tell us a little bit about ESG and what it does.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Yeah. We're a global software provider to energy and utility customers. We provide our software into three main pillars. Energy retail, smart grid and renewables, and energy assets and infrastructure.
We're massively passionate about what we do and we put power in our customers hands to make a difference, to end consumers of energy so that everybody can benefit from technology and energy.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Now I know how big ESG is. I think people sometimes don't necessarily know the scale, but you've got a head office in Chorley offices around the world. Just tell us about how big ESG is.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: Yeah, so we're in four countries now.
We have offices in Houston, Boston, Copenhagen, Denver, Calgary, and also the mighty Chorley here in the Northwest.
So, yeah, 750 people.
We've made roughly 10 acquisitions and our revenue is now well into nine figures.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: So it's great to see that you're now leading such a significant business, a global player.
I think I'd like to take you back to where our relationship started back in 2014, when you were running a division of a public company called B Global, and the opportunity arose to effectively to lead a buyout of that business.
So maybe you could just talk us through your perspective on that deal.
[00:03:32] Speaker C: It's a real trip down memory lane. I'd forgotten some of the things that happened until I thought back about it. But I worked really hard to put myself and drew my business partner into the position to be able to pull off a management buyout. And we knew that the energy market was becoming more attractive. Investment was going into it.
Customers were moving away from the big six. The smaller energy supplies like your OVO's and your octopus were growing massively.
And we were a big part of that change and that transition.
So, you know, we'd been planning a buyout and looking at the possibilities of one for a while, but I think it was all about timing. You have to be in the right place at the right time when you strike with your plans and what you'd like to do.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, being open, I was actually advising the public company. Obviously, as you remember, there was a moment in time when they decided they were going to sell the business. And you were just at the. Well, I suppose you'd made yourself in the right place at the right time, hadn't you?
[00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah, and I'd not been MD for very long of Utility Group, but I was speaking to a lot of people, advisors, friends of mine that had done management buyouts, and I just felt that it was our destiny. That being said, I also felt we were walking a bit of a tightrope. As you said, BGlobe was a listed company, so we were quite limited in the information we could share to garner interest from potential investors in us.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: So I often think that this is a great case study in how private equity can create value, particularly for a management team who have the opportunity to be involved in the acquisition of a business through this type of deal.
So you went out and you Ended up leading a buyout that was funded by North Edge and they put about £11 million into the business and you'll have raised some debt as well.
It might just be worth talking a little bit about what your perspective of that situation and what did you have to compute to the deal.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So, I mean, firstly, in terms of private equity, I think you need to pick your partner really well. So we picked a growth partner that would come on the journey with us and could see the potential in our business. And of course, they want us all to be aligned with that, which means investing some of our own cash.
I think it's a bit of a fallacy to say, you know, people have to put houses on the line and stuff like that, but I had to put everything that I had into it in terms of savings and future bonuses as well as part of that deal, because they want to feel that you're in it and if times are not quite so good, that you'll do everything that you can to put things right.
Luckily for us, we weren't in that position.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
So you then set about deploying a business plan to grow the business and actually really successfully. So it would be good to hear your views on that and how it felt growing the business. You must have quite quickly realized that you were creating quite a bit of value.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think anybody that's in the position to do an MBO management buyout in a fortunate position, I think we need to recognise that.
But my advice would be to only do it if you're really certain about your prospects and that you believe in the plan that you've set forward and your ability to grow. And I had real confidence in what we were doing. Myself, Drew Martin Evans, we could see our growth already in the business and that was what made that deal challenging, if you remember, Jonathan, because when we first started talking to you about we wanted to do a buyout and you were selling Utility Group for bglobal. So the company was growing during that period of time. So people we were talking to, certainly the ones in the early stages, the price was going up and up, so it was then difficult to convince them that it was going to be worth it. But we had utmost confidence in what we were doing.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: And you were right.
One of the other people that got involved was a chairman, another friend of mine, probably yours too, Ian Kelly.
I'd be curious if you could just talk about his role a little bit.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: Yeah, Ian was a great addition and I met a few potential chairmen and they were all good, actually. And I just felt with Ian that the mentorship that he provide would be really beneficial because I didn't know what I didn't know.
Less than two years before I'd been a sales director of a relatively small software business, mid-30s. And I thought that the mentorship from Ian would really pay off because he'd been CEO of a number of very successful private equity backed businesses.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean obviously I've seen chairs join private equity houses in a range of businesses and that was one of the really good examples of how a chair relationship with a CEO can work really well and effectively.
So that was good to see.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: I'll ask you a question, Jonathan. So given the fact that you've worked in this industry for like three and a bit decades, when you must have, when you see Matt Hurst cross the table, can you literally just take yourself back into that deal and like, you know, go into your memory banks and recall what happened? Because what I remember about the MBO was there was a lot of interest in it, wasn't there?
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah, this was a really great example of a deal of value creation. And I often do talk about it actually as a case study when we're talking to new clients, particularly the deal that we're just about to talk to when the business was then sold onwards by North Edge effectively to esg and the way that that was done and the preparation that was done, the way the business plan was affected was a really good example of value creation. So it's not always like that and sometimes in hindsight you can see that the value has been created. I think when that first deal was done, I think you did have confidence in the plan, but it was by no means certain.
[00:09:39] Speaker C: Whatever is certain. We had real confidence because the growth of our customers, we were launching new solutions and there was also the smart meter mandate from the UK government which we developed software a couple years before to meet that need. And ultimately we contracted with all our customers and more, some new customers as well, for that solution and that gave us that confidence.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: So there was such a regulatory change coming in the industry that effectively we had to decide to wait until that was proven when that would happen, didn't we? And then that process could be launched. But we did get from memory 62 inbound enquiries when we were appointed to sell the business the second time from PE houses.
It was not uncommon that that happens. But managing that level of interest in a relatively short period of time, obviously in the end there were only a small number that were the right people.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: To deal with I mean, there's a lot of trade as well, wasn't there? There were.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: I feel like I'm intruding in your memories here.
I'm not here to blow smoke up Matt's derriere. But under his leadership, the company's valuation soared from 16 million to 100 million in less than three years and revenues increased fivefold to over 20 million. When you're doing a deal, how important is the CEO across the table?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Really important. I mean, this, it was, we were going to sell this business either to trade or to private equity, or to a private equity backed trade buyer. And it's fundamental that the CEO and the management team are strong and credible and can articulate their plan clearly.
And this was a good example.
But why don't you just give us your perspective on the exit from North Edge to esg, because that was a pivotal moment probably in your life, never mind your career.
[00:11:33] Speaker C: Absolutely. And before I do that, if we just go back to the Ian thing, because I've got loads of sound bites from Ian, some of which I can't repeat on here, but one that really sticks with me is that we had our first ever strategy session with North Edge and we were confident in our sales numbers. We got good products.
But Ian, he said to Drew, who was COO at the time, he's now our cto, said, drew, we need the engine under the bonnet to be just as good as everything else. We need to be building a Rolls Royce when it comes to quality software documentation processes within our business so that we derive maximum value several years down the line. And he was absolutely right with that. So when we came to the process in 2017, we started that work about a year before, didn't we? And as you said, we had lots of inbound interest. And we actually met Axel KKKR in the summer of 2016, probably nine, ten months before we did that deal, because we were out there getting to know people, but we were pretty meticulous in our planning, I thought.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it was interesting because they did make a sighting shot offer that was in the end, the process drove the value to a much higher level. But they were one of the obvious buyers right from the first conversations, weren't they?
[00:12:51] Speaker C: I think most importantly, we really liked each other. You know, we got on great with them and we possibly would come on to talk about what to look for in a partner, but we just felt that they would be a great partner for us.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Can I ask a question about your chairman, Ian Kelly as well, before you talk about the deal to ESG is that like you hear stories about good chairman and bad chairman as well.
And I know you look to him as a bit of a mentor as well, but a good chairman can act as a buffer as well between you and the conversations ahead, can't you? Was that the sort of dynamic that you had with Ian?
[00:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, we're going back 11 years now. You know, I was mid-30s, never been private equity back before. I didn't know what I was expecting. And Ian was a real calm voice most of the time, knew when to push back with investors.
As well as that. You know, we brought on a private equity, really experienced private equity backed CFO Steve Gosling, who worked with us and brought some of that nous that we didn't have. I think all of that was really important because, you know, without that, I think me and Drew would have been like rabbits in the.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Maybe might be being hard on yourself there. We'll never know.
[00:14:00] Speaker C: We won't.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: So we ran the process in the end and it was competitive. There were really two or three really strong bidders, weren't there. But in the end the business was sold to ESG and Utility Group was rebranded as esg.
And then you had a new career, new lease of life in your career.
I'd be grateful if you could tell us a little bit about that and how that felt because there's lots of different points that people in the deal experience here aren't there. In this example, and this is the next one, you sold the business, you've become part of a bigger group with a new US based private equity backer.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: So I think we were really sold. Myself and the Utility Group team were really sold on the partnership with esg. I say partnership, we were acquired by esg, but the concept of building a global energy software company, leader in energy retail software in the us, combining forces with the leading player in the UK was a really exciting proposition.
So ultimately we did change the company name. It's not something that I'm massively passionate about. I think we've changed the company name five or six times in the UK in my 25 years. I think as long as you keep delivering for customers, company names come and go. I wasn't too bothered about that. But what was really important when I became global CEO was to build a global culture within our business and that's become even more important with some of the MA that we've done as well.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So you've then continued with M and A activity, haven't you? And you bought quite a Few businesses?
[00:15:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we've done 10. Yeah, roughly 10.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: So anything that you've learned in that period of your career, I think what's.
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Important to say is that we're not a buy and build company.
Our growth is based on organic growth, bringing new products to market. We've supplemented that with M and A.
And we're quite laser focused when it comes to M and A in managing the prospects, the pipeline, the people that we're talking to. And we look at it in three lenses. We look at it in does it expand us into new geographies? Does it expand our platform, extend our capability?
Or thirdly, does it help to consolidate competitors in the market?
And again, I think you helped us with that deal when we acquired a company called Apros in the uk, which was a Smart Meter competitor. And sometimes some of the deals that we do, some of the M and A ticks more than one of those three boxes, such as Pandell in Canada, which is our largest one today other than ESG and Utility Group coming together, took us into Canada and also into some new software sectors such as renewables.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: So some really good use of M and A to develop the business.
So how have you found the integrating those businesses?
How's that process gone?
[00:16:50] Speaker C: The most important? Well, two most important things when we're doing M and A, so obviously we need to believe in the business.
Do the due diligence, speak to the customers, that customers are happy and that they're doing a good job for them. It's really important that we believe that the company will grow as we think it will grow, and it has grown.
I think once you've done all of that, I think the two most important things when you've signed, you need to not just look at the founders because often the founders will want to leave, but to look at the management level beneath the founders and how strong is that capability with them. And I think what's also just as important is to be really open about your intentions for that business.
So many of the acquisitions we've done are not competing products, so there's no plans to retire those products, which is obviously really good for the people in those businesses. If you require a competitor, slightly different, but you take the best of what you've got, regardless of where it comes from. And I think as long as you're open with your intentions, then people, essentially you earn trust down the line.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: You've just completed your 50th trip to the US, which is incredible. You're 16 when you first went with Wardle Brass Band.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Good trip, that.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. We're still talking about it. And wardling up, we're recording this episode just after the Ryder cup, which Europe famously won. You're a king golfer, you're wearing your Ryder cup top right now.
[00:18:25] Speaker C: That's a master's top.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's a golf top, isn't it?
When we talk about integration, because you've got a big US operation and you've got a big UK operation as well. I don't know whether or not you'll be talking golf when you go over to the us.
[00:18:40] Speaker C: Oh, certainly, definitely, yeah.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: I mean, presumably you're cheering for Europe, were you?
[00:18:44] Speaker C: Oh, of course, yeah, absolutely.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: But that dynamic in terms of you believe that you can't be an invisible entrepreneur. So when you did the deal and became global CEO of esg, you carried on being based in the Northwest, but you committed to traveling over to the us probably once a month or so as well.
Why do you do that for and what's your approach to that?
[00:19:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I reckon I'm there about once a month on average most years.
But, you know, what do we all want in the leaders of our businesses? You know, if I think back to earlier in my career, what do we want?
We want to see them, we want them to be approachable, to listen to our ideas. We want them to be open as much as they possibly can be and to make us feel valued. And I've had some. We spoke about Ian as a mentor. I've had loads of great mentors, people like John Furness, Martin Evans back in the utility group days.
So, you know, I've had some really good role models. I'm fortunate of that.
I've got a new mentor now in Mike Cornell.
He's worked with AKKR before. He's come onto our board as a non exec because every day that I'm leading this business, it's a bigger business than I've ever run before, which is a great position to be in. But it's nice to have someone else helping you with that.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: It's great to see the way you progress and your careers progress, to lead such a good, such a fantastic business of such scale, a global business.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: You know, when businesses, Jonathan, fail and they don't grow, they take investment. If you look at the story of Matt and Utila Group and esg, it would look like a conveyor belt, successful climb. It doesn't always work that way, does it? What are the mistakes that CEOs sometimes make?
[00:20:29] Speaker B: I mean, obviously the journey to grow a business in the way that mats them. There's lots of decisions to make and any one of them could be you could take a wrong turn.
I think people sometimes are not bold enough.
Sometimes.
One of the obvious mistakes people make in this type of scenario is to not integrate businesses properly so they make acquisitions and then do the integration. Superficial.
Sometimes as an opportunity comes lands in front of you like the original deal, the opportunity arrives. If you don't take it when it's available, it might never come again.
So Matt took the opportunity when it arose.
It was sold at the right time as well. So choosing an investor who is going to be a good, a good partner in an investment, as North Edge were, I think that decision was a strong decision. But any of these decisions could. If you make the wrong one, things could go differently. But I think being bold and taking the opportunities is probably the key here.
[00:21:42] Speaker C: I think a couple of things to dive in on that what you just said. I said earlier that I've always felt timing is everything in life.
And it certainly was that first deal we did with North Edge because we only met them in March and we ended up signing at the end of May, whereas some other people had met in the summer prior in 2013 because the business was then growing, they couldn't get ahead around bglobal's value expectation.
So timing was really important there for sure.
Secondly, I can't just take all the glory. I couldn't have done the first buyout without Drew. He's just as much an entrepreneur as I am.
And now we've got a brilliant leadership team in place in esg and I try my best to get out the way and let them, let them do their thing as much as I possibly can as well.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: I know this is a dealmaker uncut podcast, but I'd be fascinated on your view on artificial intelligence. What's your approach to AI?
[00:22:39] Speaker C: Well, I think the first thing to say is it's exciting.
This is an exciting time, especially for a technology business like ours.
We've recently brought a new product, Titanium, to market, which serves billing for commercial industrial energy customers. Brand new platform, loads of interest in it. And by using AI in the development process, we're roughly 20% more efficient than we would have been had we not used AI tools. So we're already using it. We're using it both in the product and to make ourselves more efficient, to be more innovative. We think it is a competitive advantage for us, but I think we need to see it as an enabler. It's not a replacement, it's an enabler to make ourselves better, to do things quicker, to be more innovative in our products.
But I think as a leader of a business, you're the same, Jonathan at am. I think we've also got responsibility as well because what makes us special is the energy expertise and the tech expertise within our business.
And if we don't protect some of the entry level roles and the futures for our kids coming into it, then who are the experts going to be in the future? And I think to balance those two things, I'm not sure I've got the answer to that at the moment, but we all need to be mindful of that.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we are looking at similar things. How do you use it to improve the business?
We can produce documents a lot faster, we could use research a lot more effectively using AI. But can you?
The softer political aspects of managing a deal, I'm not sure AI could easily do that. And like you say, you need to keep training your people as well. So you can't just replace people who do the more routine jobs with AI and then find that you've no team coming through when you need them.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: I think there's a balance to be struck there. Yeah, there certainly is. You know, focusing your people on higher value areas, I'm all for that, but I think, you know, we do need to be mindful of the other side as well. And I think certain professions are going to struggle.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Here's a question for you, Jonathan, which was. I remember going to Utility Group's offices after north, as did the deal.
And I remember meeting Matt, I think probably for the first time. I've met him a number of times since and we both are members of the same gym.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: Can't you tell?
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Matt's having much more success than I am.
But what I would say with Matt is that. And he's become the chair of Inspire Youth Zone in Chorley, which is very, very close to his heart. I don't think fundamentally Matt's changed as a person, has he? Despite the success of Utila Group and esg. Would that be fair?
[00:25:23] Speaker B: No, I think Matt's very down to earth and actually, if you look at the progress, progression of his career, he's now one of the major CEO of a major business.
But when we talk, it's the same conversation, the same at heart, I've got.
[00:25:43] Speaker C: The same group of friends. I don't think my mum and dad would be very pleased if I change too much. And I'm sure Becky, my wife, might say I've changed a bit, but I Think we do, don't we grow and kids are growing up now, they're 13 and 11. And you know, I've got the same group of mates I play golf with and I went to school with and I think that's really important and it's something I'm trying to instill in my kids.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: What's your golf handicap now compared to 2014?
[00:26:08] Speaker C: Well, I didn't play golf then. I've only been playing about six or seven years. It's 13 point something.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: We can say what we really think about Matt after the break, but that's all for part one of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast. When we come back, we'll give our views on the interview and then, Jonathan, you'll be answering listener and reader and viewer questions.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Matt. Great, great to see you.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: Yeah, good to see you both. Thank you.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Welcome back to the second part of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast. We've just interviewed Matt Hurst, CEO of esg. He left the room. So, Jonathan, you can be honest. What do you think of Matt?
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Well, I've always been really fond of Matt. I've obviously worked with him over quite a number of years now. Since, when was it 2014?
He's developed as a leader incredibly over that period.
He was a strong leader as a young man when he led that first deal.
But to see the progression in his career and how he's led that team, he brings people together, he's collaborative and I'm just delighted to see how successful he's been.
It's a real privilege.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: I think the thing about Jonathan as well is. Sorry. I think the thing about Matt, Jonathan, is that he really knows his industry. He's never tried to veer away from that. He's worked in the energy sector for 25 years. A couple of things about Matt I like is that he's always had an open door policy in the sense that he's never locked himself away in an office. It's always been an open plan office.
And when I did an event not so long ago and Matt was in Denmark on the day, and then there was this drone incident at the airport and he had to fly via Amsterdam and he got back from my event in time despite the fact he had to bust a gut doing it, and I just thought, well, actually he gave me his word he's going to be there and he was. And I think that sums Matt up.
So, yeah, no surprise that he's been successful. He's not stopped yet, he's not finishing yet. I think he's got a long way to go.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: No, like I say, he's very, very well known in his industry. Everybody knows him in his industry. If you ever meet somebody around, everyone knows Matt.
It'll be fascinating to see the next chapter. He's still young, he's still got a lot to do in his career. So we'll watch with interest.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: This next section is called Ask Jonathan. It's when listeners can ask Jonathan any question they want. I've always got the odd question as well. So Jonathan, question one Alvarez and Marcel recently advised on the beach on their refinancing. I'm reading a lot more about refinancing. Just explain what that involves and why are so many companies going down this refinancing route?
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Well, I mean, most businesses of scale that have a line of debt will at some point need to refinance that debt. The debt lines are often limited in time and they need renewing.
And so a re banking is a fairly ordinary thing for a business of scale to do as a routine part of their business. Obviously, often businesses that are involved in a transaction or if they're looking to expand or make an acquisition, they'll need to raise additional funding, whether that be an additional debt line.
And often they'll raise a debt line to try and cope with maybe a series of acquisitions so that there's not a repeated need to keep raising more debt.
But there are lots of different reasons why people might need to raise debt.
Just it's obviously a skilled A bit of corporate finance is raising debt and our debt people are great. Actually we work closely with them on almost every deal.
There's a need to understand what the debt capacity of the business that you're selling will be. So yeah, we work really closely with them.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: Next question comes from someone who clearly reads your LinkedIn posts, because you spoke about this in one of your recent pieces. What are enterprise value to earnings multiples?
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Right. So this is talking about how to value a business. And I think, as most people involved in sort of valuing businesses would know, that the value of a business is theoretically the present value of all the future cash flows of the business are discounted at a discount factor that takes into account the risk profile of the business. So that's technically how to value a business. But in order to do that properly, you need to know fairly accurately how the business is likely to perform in the future.
So forecasts over several years as an approximation to a discounted cash flow calculation, people will often apply an earnings multiple to a multiple to an earnings figure to arise at a valuation that's just a mathematical simplification of the DCF calculation.
So often people talk about EBITDA multiples and to do that they'll look at implied multiples in other similar deals to look at the price that was paid compared to the earnings of a business in transactions. But often they'll look at quoted company multiples as well to see if there's a comparable quoted company. And if so they'll look at the valuation multiple implied by their share, their market cap.
So it's basically a methodology for valuing businesses.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Okay, final question for the day. M and A activity dropped significantly in the first half of 2025 with the unstable geopolitics being partly blamed. What's your prediction for the rest of 2025 and the start of 2026?
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah, so the market has not been particularly on fire for the first half of this year.
2023 was a really poor year and there's been some recovery since then. But people have been expecting the market to recover significantly since then. It's not quite happened. There's always been another event that's happened. I think if you see behind that it's actually more of a cure its egg in that it is good in parts in tech enabled services, technology, certain parts of healthcare. There are sectors particularly where sectors turn where businesses are doing really well. The M and A market is still quite buoyant. So a tech enabled services business that's well positioned can still attract a really well attended auction and get real really good values. Some of the more old style businesses that are not tech enabled, they might not attract the same attention.
You almost got two speeds where some parts of the market are really attractive whereas others people are really cautious. So it's more complex than just it's still a bit flat.
We expect that next year will improve.
We've seen over the summer a lot of pitch activity.
Just in the last month or so there's been loads of pitch activity. So a lot of people gearing up to run processes in either the last quarter of this year or the first quarter of of next year. So I expect to see it recover.
Obviously we're always subject to the vagaries of various events, what happens in the budget, all that sort of thing. But we remain optimistic about the market.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Okay, that's all for this episode of the Dealmaker Uncut podcast, powered by Alvarez and Marcel at their offices here in Manchester. I checked the charts, Jonathan. You'll be pleased to know the Dealmaker Uncut podcast continues to ride high in the UK podcast charts and in Italy, which is good to know. Final shout out to you, the star of the show, Jonathan Boyers.
I wish you well. Thanks for joining us and onwards and upwards.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: Thanks Chris.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, tell your friends and family and follow us on the social media to get us back up those podcast charts and.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: Rate it 5 star if you like it.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Okay, thanks very much.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: Sam.
